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Post by thehothead on Jul 11, 2012 10:46:18 GMT
I was walking through my office today, decided to wear a tie and I feel more accomplished with it on, it somehow makes me feel it adds to my integrity, people will take me more seriously with it on.
A chap held a door open for me, he was fully suited, a mature fellow, grey hair, probably a top manager in the company and I thought to myself - although I am black British, I don't in any way, shape or form feel like a second class citizen.
I think this is testament to how far we as a country have come. I know racism still exists but I don't think it has hampered my development or progression at all. I certainly feel like I belong.
I was wondering how others feel or have felt if they lived in places they were the minority in ....
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Post by Robin van Bergkamp on Jul 11, 2012 11:37:44 GMT
I think the country has become more multi-cultural. I went to boarding school in Shropshire and on my return visit in the previous year, there were a number of different races represented in the staff and student body, all contributing to the life of the community. The same goes for nearby towns
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Post by Jayramfootball on Jul 11, 2012 21:45:35 GMT
I think we have come long way - I am a strange mix myself (half asian / half european) and remember pretty overt racism as a kid (even from parents of other school kids). Over time, the inevitable has happened.. more mixed marriages, more or a melting pot of colours, religions, and cultures. That has mellowed racism considerably.
I wonder how much racism would actually come back if it were socially acceptable all of a sudden?? i.e. have people changed because they dont want to look bad, or have they REALLY changed their views...
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 12, 2012 19:13:11 GMT
I came from a North African/ European background and was born and lived in initially outside of Europe growing up in Africa. When I first came to this country I was picked on, on a regular basis because of my race, skin colour, nationality and religion. This was very common in school for me and I was branded a troubled child for defending myself physically against the other children. On several occasions I went to the teachers only for them to send me away. This became less of an issue by the time I got to secondary school, however one of my worst experiences of racism was of a former police officer turned sub-teacher who had a bone to pick with Blacks, Arabs and anyone Muslim. I was shocked when in front of the class he said that his wife did not like black men and how he wanted to assault a black man for coming onto his wife. I was shocked further when he said that all Muslims are terrorists and that they should be dealt with before they parachute into our back gardens and kill us. I couldn’t believe it when some of the students agreed with him and the fact that he expected me to agree. Needless to say I threatened to take legal action unless the man was removed from the school premises and band from teaching in that school again.
To answer your question, no racism is still very much around from my experience anyway, it seems that adults are more aware of what they say around certain individuals but that does not mean that they are inherently more tolerant judging by the way their kids are brought up to say such derogatory statements about other races.
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Post by pneawf on Jul 15, 2012 10:39:58 GMT
I would say racism is not as accepted as it once was, but I wouldn't say it is not still an issue.
However, I would argue that a lot of what is said about certain issues is a dislike of certain cultures as opposed to disliking a race. I would also argue that the two things should not be viewed in the same light.
The problem is that people insist of conflating the two issues. This only serves to polarise the problem. I, for example, believe that racially insulting someone should be a criminal act. The problem is that this would be abused and used to defend people's cultures and religions which is totally wrong. You cannot choose your race, you can 100% choose how you act and what you believe.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 15, 2012 14:57:31 GMT
I would say racism is not as accepted as it once was, but I wouldn't say it is not still an issue. However, I would argue that a lot of what is said about certain issues is a dislike of certain cultures as opposed to disliking a race. I would also argue that the two things should not be viewed in the same light.The problem is that people insist of conflating the two issues. This only serves to polarise the problem. I, for example, believe that racially insulting someone should be a criminal act. The problem is that this would be abused and used to defend people's cultures and religions which is totally wrong. You cannot choose your race, you can 100% choose how you act and what you believe. Racism covers Race, culture and Religion so yes they should be held in the same light. Secondly the argument about defending peoples religion and culture should be acceptable I dont understand your thinking behind this? are you saying that insulting someone’s culture and religion should be acceptable? Yes a person can choose how they act or what Religion they follow but that does not mean that they should be attacked because of these beliefs because that would be ridiculous.
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Post by pneawf on Jul 15, 2012 15:38:28 GMT
I would say racism is not as accepted as it once was, but I wouldn't say it is not still an issue. However, I would argue that a lot of what is said about certain issues is a dislike of certain cultures as opposed to disliking a race. I would also argue that the two things should not be viewed in the same light.The problem is that people insist of conflating the two issues. This only serves to polarise the problem. I, for example, believe that racially insulting someone should be a criminal act. The problem is that this would be abused and used to defend people's cultures and religions which is totally wrong. You cannot choose your race, you can 100% choose how you act and what you believe. Racism covers Race, culture and Religion so yes they should be held in the same light. Secondly the argument about defending peoples religion and culture should be acceptable I dont understand your thinking behind this? are you saying that insulting someone’s culture and religion should be acceptable? Yes a person can choose how they act or what Religion they follow but that does not mean that they should be attacked because of these beliefs because that would be ridiculous. No, I believe that you cannot choose your race and an insult based on that race is unacceptable. People choose to follow a religion and culture and to prevent people from pointing out where a religion or culture is unacceptable is perfectly ok. I do not mean calling someone a name because they are Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Shinto, etc would be acceptable. I mean that religion should not be held above criticism. It should never be illegal to be blasphemous in whatever form that may take. I don't care what your culture is, forcing a woman to marry someone they don't want to, or preventing the use of medication or contraception, or having unnecessary medical procedures performed on them is wrong and it should be treated as wrong. If you defend it then you open yourself up for ridicule. Being of one racial descent or another does not mean you should be open to any form of ridicule because of it. Nor should whether you have a physical deformity or disability, or wear glasses or have ginger hair, etc.
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Post by thehothead on Jul 15, 2012 20:55:23 GMT
I would say racism is not as accepted as it once was, but I wouldn't say it is not still an issue. However, I would argue that a lot of what is said about certain issues is a dislike of certain cultures as opposed to disliking a race. I would also argue that the two things should not be viewed in the same light.The problem is that people insist of conflating the two issues. This only serves to polarise the problem. I, for example, believe that racially insulting someone should be a criminal act. The problem is that this would be abused and used to defend people's cultures and religions which is totally wrong. You cannot choose your race, you can 100% choose how you act and what you believe. Racism covers Race, culture and Religion so yes they should be held in the same light. Secondly the argument about defending peoples religion and culture should be acceptable I dont understand your thinking behind this? are you saying that insulting someone’s culture and religion should be acceptable? Yes a person can choose how they act or what Religion they follow but that does not mean that they should be attacked because of these beliefs because that would be ridiculous. Altbouli - thats not correct, racism covers race, not religion or culture. There are black Africans who are muslim as well as white muslims. Racism can only cover race. Religious prejudice is just that, religious prejudice. There are black Roman Catholics as well as white.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 15, 2012 22:54:50 GMT
Racism covers Race, culture and Religion so yes they should be held in the same light. Secondly the argument about defending peoples religion and culture should be acceptable I dont understand your thinking behind this? are you saying that insulting someone’s culture and religion should be acceptable? Yes a person can choose how they act or what Religion they follow but that does not mean that they should be attacked because of these beliefs because that would be ridiculous. No, I believe that you cannot choose your race and an insult based on that race is unacceptable. People choose to follow a religion and culture and to prevent people from pointing out where a religion or culture is unacceptable is perfectly ok. I do not mean calling someone a name because they are Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Shinto, etc would be acceptable. I mean that religion should not be held above criticism. It should never be illegal to be blasphemous in whatever form that may take. I don't care what your culture is, forcing a woman to marry someone they don't want to, or preventing the use of medication or contraception, or having unnecessary medical procedures performed on them is wrong and it should be treated as wrong. If you defend it then you open yourself up for ridicule. Being of one racial descent or another does not mean you should be open to any form of ridicule because of it. Nor should whether you have a physical deformity or disability, or wear glasses or have ginger hair, etc. Who are you to criticise another Religion or Culture, your view of right and wrong maybe completely different to someone else’s view and you have no right to criticise another persons Religion or culture just because you dont agree with it. I agree with the example you gave however I would not openly criticise another persons beliefs just because I disagree with them. Most of the examples you gave have nothing to do with Religion or culture for that matter, for example Marrying someone against their will has nothing to do with Religion or culture it’s just something that ranges from family to family. The only example of yours that I believe is a religious thing is the prevention the use of medication which I believe is related to Jehovah’s witnesses . They are not allowed to have blood transfusions which I disagree with but that is their choice and I would not openly mock or criticise them because of that. In my opinion mocking someone’s Religion and culture is just as bad as mocking their race.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 15, 2012 22:56:45 GMT
Racism covers Race, culture and Religion so yes they should be held in the same light. Secondly the argument about defending peoples religion and culture should be acceptable I dont understand your thinking behind this? are you saying that insulting someone’s culture and religion should be acceptable? Yes a person can choose how they act or what Religion they follow but that does not mean that they should be attacked because of these beliefs because that would be ridiculous. Altbouli - thats not correct, racism covers race, not religion or culture. There are black Africans who are muslim as well as white muslims. Racism can only cover race. Religious prejudice is just that, religious prejudice. There are black Roman Catholics as well as white. British Law includes them as one (see Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 as an example)
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Post by pneawf on Jul 16, 2012 6:18:41 GMT
No, I believe that you cannot choose your race and an insult based on that race is unacceptable. People choose to follow a religion and culture and to prevent people from pointing out where a religion or culture is unacceptable is perfectly ok. I do not mean calling someone a name because they are Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Shinto, etc would be acceptable. I mean that religion should not be held above criticism. It should never be illegal to be blasphemous in whatever form that may take. I don't care what your culture is, forcing a woman to marry someone they don't want to, or preventing the use of medication or contraception, or having unnecessary medical procedures performed on them is wrong and it should be treated as wrong. If you defend it then you open yourself up for ridicule. Being of one racial descent or another does not mean you should be open to any form of ridicule because of it. Nor should whether you have a physical deformity or disability, or wear glasses or have ginger hair, etc. Who are you to criticise another Religion or Culture, your view of right and wrong maybe completely different to someone else’s view and you have no right to criticise another persons Religion or culture just because you dont agree with it. I agree with the example you gave however I would not openly criticise another persons beliefs just because I disagree with them. Most of the examples you gave have nothing to do with Religion or culture for that matter, for example Marrying someone against their will has nothing to do with Religion or culture it’s just something that ranges from family to family. The only example of yours that I believe is a religious thing is the prevention the use of medication which I believe is related to Jehovah’s witnesses . They are not allowed to have blood transfusions which I disagree with but that is their choice and I would not openly mock or criticise them because of that. In my opinion mocking someone’s Religion and culture is just as bad as mocking their race. Everyone has the right to criticise what they believe to be wrong. It is called free speech and is a basic human right. All of my examples are religious or cultural: male and female circumcision, many cultures still have arranged marriages, religions ban the use of contraception.... The idea that a belief should be protected by law is exactly why they should not. By your argument any belief, however vile would have to be accorded the same protection. In the case of faith, if your faith cannot take open criticism then your faith is sadly lacking.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 8:56:57 GMT
Who are you to criticise another Religion or Culture, your view of right and wrong maybe completely different to someone else’s view and you have no right to criticise another persons Religion or culture just because you dont agree with it. I agree with the example you gave however I would not openly criticise another persons beliefs just because I disagree with them. Most of the examples you gave have nothing to do with Religion or culture for that matter, for example Marrying someone against their will has nothing to do with Religion or culture it’s just something that ranges from family to family. The only example of yours that I believe is a religious thing is the prevention the use of medication which I believe is related to Jehovah’s witnesses . They are not allowed to have blood transfusions which I disagree with but that is their choice and I would not openly mock or criticise them because of that. In my opinion mocking someone’s Religion and culture is just as bad as mocking their race. Everyone has the right to criticise what they believe to be wrong. It is called free speech and is a basic human right. All of my examples are religious or cultural: male and female circumcision, many cultures still have arranged marriages, religions ban the use of contraception.... The idea that a belief should be protected by law is exactly why they should not. By your argument any belief, however vile would have to be accorded the same protection. In the case of faith, if your faith cannot take open criticism then your faith is sadly lacking. Once again I do not believe that it is your place or mine to to criticize a persons culture or Religion just because you disagree with it. Unless of course it is harming an individual or group of people. I believe that unless you have a substantial knowledge about a person's culture or Religion it is not appropriate to criticize them because you are pushing your own beliefs or ideologies onto them forcefully. If a person is ignorant and asks a question about a religion or culture is perfectly acceptable. However mindlessly criticizing or insulting something you don't agree or believe with is ridiculous and doesn't help anything, the only thing it creates is tension. By your logic Pastor Terry Jones actions were perfectly acceptable in burning the Qur'an because he was criticizing Islam. The fact of the matter is that most Religions can accept criticism provided that it leads to a constructive discussion resulting in people understanding the religion better However acting like Terry Jones is vile because he is spewing hatred towards another Religion and his actions were followed by other extreme Christians and atheists alike burning the Qur'an. There is a thin line between constructive criticism and hatred towards another persons religion. If the examples you have given are directed specifically towards my Religion (Islam) then I suggest you research up on it because you are way off the mark
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Post by Jayramfootball on Jul 16, 2012 9:10:39 GMT
The problem with religious debate is that it quickly escalates - when you question someone's fundamental belief system, then you question them as a person.
It is better to not debate relgion at all - and simply accept that people are different all over the world. I approach religion as a personal and private part of my life.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 9:24:56 GMT
The problem with religious debate is that it quickly escalates - when you question someone's fundamental belief system, then you question them as a person. It is better to not debate relgion at all - and simply accept that people are different all over the world. I approach religion as a personal and private part of my life. A very sensible way of thinking I think it would be best if we to agree to disagree on this matter pneawf
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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 10:17:35 GMT
Altbouli, again I have to respectfully disagree with you. You say forced marriages are not religious or cultural but it is only in the domain of a small set of people. If it were not it would be happening to white English, white French, Black Caribbean .. but it doesn't, it happens in countries where culture embraces religion to the detriment of the country in some respects.
British law sees them as the same but, thats just for clarity in the court. Racism is NOT the same as religious prejudice. Take the war in Northern Ireland, Protestants vs Catholics, all parties involved are Irish and White. How can that religious war therefore be classed as racism ?
It can't
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