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Post by ammaar on Jul 16, 2012 14:57:33 GMT
Very good read. Things did tend to look a little on edge at times, but it was a thoroughly interesting debate.
I too am a Muslim and I got involved in plenty of religious/ethical debates on not606 in the General Chat thread, but obviously a lot of the people there are immature and posted disgusting and juvenile stuff. Not even the posts, but inappropriate pictures.
I was accused of being a bad human being by a Norwich fan who had no clue what he was talking about, simply because I followed Islam. And I was accused of being an apologist for paedophiles by someone else because of things that have happened in Prophet Muhammad's (S.A.W) life that I defended, but people did not understand.
Long story short, several people resorted to swearing and insolent name calling when it wasn't necessary. Obviously some others tried to keep it constructive, but others failed to do so.
At least on here people can talk about their diverse opinions and try to keep it civil, without resorting to vitriolic abuse if there is no general consensus.
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Post by pneawf on Jul 16, 2012 16:08:28 GMT
Jayram, this is from personal experience and experiences of friends and family. I've been out clubbing and saw a girl I used to talk to in college almost every day. She was with her family/friends, I went to her and said hello and she shunned me POINT BLANK ! Pakistani girl. Another Pakistani girl was 30 when I was dating her, she could only tell her older sister that she was seeing me because her family would go ballistic. We dated for a while undercover, lots of sneaking around. I dated a Chinese girl a few years back and I openly asked her the question why is it that Oriental Asians don't like blacks, her response was black men sleep around and are not good fathers so orientals tend to avoid them. A good mate of mine married his long term Indian girlfriend, smashing girl. I asked her how difficult it had been for my mate to get accepted by her family. She replied she didn't care what they thought - which made it a lot easier, now her family love him to bits. But she also said there is a problem, a perception issue. She admitted that the rest of her family see blacks as lazy, unambitious and trouble makers.I haven't made any of this up. This is exactly the problem I am trying to highlight, This misconception of a persons attitude based on Race can also be applied to Religion or Culture. How many times have Muslims in recent times been subject to unfair stereotypes in recent years? I remember reading an article that said that Arabs and Asians are stopped now almost double the amount of times they were by the police since 911, now many of those stopped are not Muslims and have nothing to do with Islam but are still stopped by the police because of this stereotyping that all Muslims are dangerous and all Asians/Arabs are Muslims. The number of white people being stopped is the same as before although the number of people converting to Islam has increased since 911 (because they went out to learn about Islam and try and understand it more) I hope that this helps show that Religion and Race are very closely linked This is why I believe we need to stop one belief being above criticism. take the example of Pastor Jones. His belief MUST be criticised and MUST be mocked because it is vile. It is HIS attitude and the fact it is tolerated that gives credence to anti muslim sentiment in the USA. But if religion is protected from criticism, then so is he. See the point I am making? We must allow all to be criticised so that which desperately needs to be criticised can be..... |
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Post by Jayramfootball on Jul 16, 2012 18:07:28 GMT
Very good read. Things did tend to look a little on edge at times, but it was a thoroughly interesting debate. I too am a Muslim and I got involved in plenty of religious/ethical debates on not606 in the General Chat thread, but obviously a lot of the people there are immature and posted disgusting and juvenile stuff. Not even the posts, but inappropriate pictures. I was accused of being a bad human being by a Norwich fan who had no clue what he was talking about, simply because I followed Islam. And I was accused of being an apologist for paedophiles by someone else because of things that have happened in Prophet Muhammad's (S.A.W) life that I defended, but people did not understand. Long story short, several people resorted to swearing and insolent name calling when it wasn't necessary. Obviously some others tried to keep it constructive, but others failed to do so. At least on here people can talk about their diverse opinions and try to keep it civil, without resorting to vitriolic abuse if there is no general consensus. Well said Ammaar  Have some Karma.  There will come a time I am sure when RVB opens this forum up to the wider online world as opposed to our secret hideaway - if and when he does we need to make sure we maintain the spirit of this forum. |
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 19:43:19 GMT
This is exactly the problem I am trying to highlight, This misconception of a persons attitude based on Race can also be applied to Religion or Culture. How many times have Muslims in recent times been subject to unfair stereotypes in recent years? I remember reading an article that said that Arabs and Asians are stopped now almost double the amount of times they were by the police since 911, now many of those stopped are not Muslims and have nothing to do with Islam but are still stopped by the police because of this stereotyping that all Muslims are dangerous and all Asians/Arabs are Muslims. The number of white people being stopped is the same as before although the number of people converting to Islam has increased since 911 (because they went out to learn about Islam and try and understand it more) I hope that this helps show that Religion and Race are very closely linked This is why I believe we need to stop one belief being above criticism. take the example of Pastor Jones. His belief MUST be criticised and MUST be mocked because it is vile. It is HIS attitude and the fact it is tolerated that gives credence to anti muslim sentiment in the USA. But if religion is protected from criticism, then so is he. See the point I am making? We must allow all to be criticised so that which desperately needs to be criticised can be..... I think I understand your view on criticism better now. At the end of the day there are times when a person's belief can be criticised in the example we have used of Pastor Jones and his beliefs. By saying his beliefs you are criticising him rather than a group of people. I don’t believe for example that the Bible tells Christians to burn the books of other religion. I Believe that it is his vile misinterpretation (belief) and not that of other Christians. If he were to hide behind Christianity then he and his followers can rightly be ridiculed I would not however wish for Christians to be ridiculed because of this hateful individual. If you see what I am trying to get at? In my example I am highlighting peoples beliefs as different depending on the person and one persons belief may very well be an extreme view point and can therefore be criticised that is not to say that a Religion or culture should be criticised because of it. I can give you examples where Muslims have criticised other Muslims. For example as you may be aware some people in Saudi Arabia have very extreme views on things and have been criticised by other Muslims because of it, I hope this clarifies my meaning  |
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Post by thehothead on Jul 17, 2012 12:07:04 GMT
There are good and bad apples everywhere, I mean, the Catholic and protestant church have covered up the paedophile wrong doing that has been embedded in their world.
It must be awful being a muslim at such an electrically charged time, there is far too much hatred and ignorance in the world and it is simply too easy to lay the blame on the door of a "minority".
When I was 16/17 I looked into becoming a muslim. A mate of mine came back from New York and at the time the rap group Public Enemy were a massive influence on us. They had a section called the S1Ws - the militant side of the group, who were in the Nation of Islam - the same section of Islam that Louis Farakhan (sp?) and Malcolm X were members of, I think Muhammed Ali was too at one stage.
I remember seeing a documentary on Public Enemy too, Chuck D - the rapper - claimed that he was 'pro black' but a lot of the media read that as meaning 'anti white', so he explained thats not what he was, he wanted his people, black people, to empower themselves and stop aiming low, a noble thought.
But after I read the documentation that my mate brought back, I was horrified. In the pamphlets were references to the 'white devils' and essentially depicting white people as evil. I grew up in North London with white people, I didn't see them as evil or devils so immediately I said .. nah .. this isn't for me.
But there are many others who fall for the teaching and doctrines from extremists and, those not of sound mind will follow blindly. This is the danger and the reason Islam and muslims have such a bad name, the bad teachings from a few have tainted the many.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 17, 2012 13:57:48 GMT
There are good and bad apples everywhere, I mean, the Catholic and protestant church have covered up the paedophile wrong doing that has been embedded in their world. It must be awful being a muslim at such an electrically charged time, there is far too much hatred and ignorance in the world and it is simply too easy to lay the blame on the door of a "minority". When I was 16/17 I looked into becoming a muslim. A mate of mine came back from New York and at the time the rap group Public Enemy were a massive influence on us. They had a section called the S1Ws - the militant side of the group, who were in the Nation of Islam - the same section of Islam that Louis Farakhan (sp?) and Malcolm X were members of, I think Muhammed Ali was too at one stage. I remember seeing a documentary on Public Enemy too, Chuck D - the rapper - claimed that he was 'pro black' but a lot of the media read that as meaning 'anti white', so he explained thats not what he was, he wanted his people, black people, to empower themselves and stop aiming low, a noble thought. But after I read the documentation that my mate brought back, I was horrified. In the pamphlets were references to the 'white devils' and essentially depicting white people as evil. I grew up in North London with white people, I didn't see them as evil or devils so immediately I said .. nah .. this isn't for me. But there are many others who fall for the teaching and doctrines from extremists and, those not of sound mind will follow blindly. This is the danger and the reason Islam and muslims have such a bad name, the bad teachings from a few have tainted the many. You are 100% correct but I would like to say that the Nation of Islam is not nearly as bad as it once was, the Likes of Malcom X and Muhammed left the NOI and joined fundamental Islam that is taught around the world (when they visited areas in Africa) this led to a lot of people either leaving the NOI or protesting that it could be changed. These days the NOI is far closer to real Islam from my understanding  . Its interesting that you should mention Public Enemy because a lot of Rapper similar to them have converted to Islam in recent times, Napoleon from Outlawz (2Pacs group) converted to Islam fairly recently and is now a prominent speaker for Muslims and youths in deprived areas (he visited my area recently) . I heard that even Snoop Dog joined the NOI recently as well. All the current hatred does make it hard to live as a Muslim sometimes but I stand by my Religion regardless because the benefits for me outweigh the negative regardless of peoples hatred. I guess you could say the one good think that has come out of all these wars and media portrayals of Islam is that people have taken the time to go out and read about Islam to get a better understanding of the Religion which I think has changed many peoples perception of us and has also showed them that the majority are not bad as the media portray us to be |
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Post by samurai on Jul 22, 2012 19:53:31 GMT
I am, like Jayram, mixed race and to be honest I haven't experienced much racism at all in my life. London's amazing for this sort of thing, it welcomes everyone no matter who you are, and I actually feel more of a Londoner than British at times.
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Post by Bergkamp a Dutch master on Jul 22, 2012 20:13:43 GMT
I do not normally enter into what should be debate about racial things, because it usually becomes hot about culture, religion, tolerance, education and even immigration.
I am glad to see followers of different religions, cultures(?) and experience of living alongside people who were not brought up to be and to believe in the same things. Tolerance is the key, with understanding and education leading to harmony and even friendship.
Most anxiety, fear, and resentment is due to not knowing about people and the way they wish to run their lives. Children growing up together being taught wisely do not show racial intolerance - it is their family, neighbours or media that poison natural behaviour.
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