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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 10:29:55 GMT
Altbouli - you are guessing I might be responding to another one of your posts .. .and I am Of course you can criticise religions and cultures who have fundamental differences to those you follow. Its not just a 1 way street, the other people criticise too. According to some Islamists, for example, all non believers should be killed. Extreme YES but all you have to do is watch videos of them burning bibles and flags of the country to see how much hate exists. So all Pastor Terry did was return the favour and he gets accused of all sorts. Its double standards. Muslims are the first to take offence to everything. If you go to their country you have to observe their laws but when they come here they seek to have their laws enshrined in ours. Its not just muslims, Seikhs too. Do you think there would be hope in hell for a rastafarian - which is a recognised religion, to go to an islamic country with his "weed" which, according to their religion is "the healing of the nation" ?? They can't even do it in this country !! The British bend of backwards to appease too many people. I am black British like I say but some of the worst racism I have experienced has been at the hands of Oriental Asians, Indians and Pakistanis. As a black man I get looked down on by them. I have so many stories I could tell you about this topic !!! They openly say black people are lazy and only want to make all the women pregnant. Growing up where I grew up and being surrounded by all sorts, it was easy to see the divisions, which families let you play with their kids, which families would invite you in etc.
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Post by pneawf on Jul 16, 2012 10:37:16 GMT
Everyone has the right to criticise what they believe to be wrong. It is called free speech and is a basic human right. All of my examples are religious or cultural: male and female circumcision, many cultures still have arranged marriages, religions ban the use of contraception.... The idea that a belief should be protected by law is exactly why they should not. By your argument any belief, however vile would have to be accorded the same protection. In the case of faith, if your faith cannot take open criticism then your faith is sadly lacking. Once again I do not believe that it is your place or mine to to criticize a persons culture or Religion just because you disagree with it. Unless of course it is harming an individual or group of people. I believe that unless you have a substantial knowledge about a person's culture or Religion it is not appropriate to criticize them because you are pushing your own beliefs or ideologies onto them forcefully. If a person is ignorant and asks a question about a religion or culture is perfectly acceptable. However mindlessly criticizing or insulting something you don't agree or believe with is ridiculous and doesn't help anything, the only thing it creates is tension. By your logic Pastor Terry Jones actions were perfectly acceptable in burning the Qur'an because he was criticizing Islam. The fact of the matter is that most Religions can accept criticism provided that it leads to a constructive discussion resulting in people understanding the religion better However acting like Terry Jones is vile because he is spewing hatred towards another Religion and his actions were followed by other extreme Christians and atheists alike burning the Qur'an. There is a thin line between constructive criticism and hatred towards another persons religion. If the examples you have given are directed specifically towards my Religion (Islam) then I suggest you research up on it because you are way off the mark You are misunderstanding me. Terry Jones was spewing religious hatred. I say that is unacceptable. Criticising Islam for doing something is another matter to saying kill Muslims because they do it, or hate Muslims because they do it. Religion cannot be above criticism. Nothing can or should. However, I am happy to just agree to disagree my friend. No problem at all.
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Post by Jayramfootball on Jul 16, 2012 10:48:14 GMT
Altbouli - you are guessing I might be responding to another one of your posts .. .and I am Of course you can criticise religions and cultures who have fundamental differences to those you follow. Its not just a 1 way street, the other people criticise too. According to some Islamists, for example, all non believers should be killed. Extreme YES but all you have to do is watch videos of them burning bibles and flags of the country to see how much hate exists. So all Pastor Terry did was return the favour and he gets accused of all sorts. Its double standards. Muslims are the first to take offence to everything. If you go to their country you have to observe their laws but when they come here they seek to have their laws enshrined in ours. Its not just muslims, Seikhs too. Do you think there would be hope in hell for a rastafarian - which is a recognised religion, to go to an islamic country with his "weed" which, according to their religion is "the healing of the nation" ?? They can't even do it in this country !! The British bend of backwards to appease too many people. I am black British like I say but some of the worst racism I have experienced has been at the hands of Oriental Asians, Indians and Pakistanis. As a black man I get looked down on by them. I have so many stories I could tell you about this topic !!! They openly say black people are lazy and only want to make all the women pregnant. Growing up where I grew up and being surrounded by all sorts, it was easy to see the divisions, which families let you play with their kids, which families would invite you in etc. hothead - racism exists on all sides, and I dont think that in general Orientals, Indians and Pakistani's dislike black people. In terms of the differences between England (or USA for that matter) and Muslim countries, you also have to remember the number of minority religions and cultures that exist in the Wetern world - of course more allowances are made in every day culture (even law) when there are so many immigrants Take Pakistan as an example - the foreign born population has decreased rapidly over the last decades and Westerners living there are a tiny minority, Having said that there are several cultures that do exist there, including those of Christian faith, and they are accounted for in law and religion.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 10:55:15 GMT
Altbouli - you are guessing I might be responding to another one of your posts .. .and I am Of course you can criticise religions and cultures who have fundamental differences to those you follow. Its not just a 1 way street, the other people criticise too. According to some Islamists, for example, all non believers should be killed. Extreme YES but all you have to do is watch videos of them burning bibles and flags of the country to see how much hate exists. So all Pastor Terry did was return the favour and he gets accused of all sorts. Its double standards. Muslims are the first to take offence to everything. If you go to their country you have to observe their laws but when they come here they seek to have their laws enshrined in ours. Its not just muslims, Seikhs too. Do you think there would be hope in hell for a rastafarian - which is a recognised religion, to go to an islamic country with his "weed" which, according to their religion is "the healing of the nation" ?? They can't even do it in this country !! The British bend of backwards to appease too many people. I am black British like I say but some of the worst racism I have experienced has been at the hands of Oriental Asians, Indians and Pakistanis. As a black man I get looked down on by them. I have so many stories I could tell you about this topic !!! They openly say black people are lazy and only want to make all the women pregnant. Growing up where I grew up and being surrounded by all sorts, it was easy to see the divisions, which families let you play with their kids, which families would invite you in etc. Well I can tell you that's it is simply not true and is a common misconception, no where in the Koran does it say to kill non-Muslims just because they are not muslim. I think the biggest issue here is peoples interpretations of religion, there is nothing wrong with Religion and in almost all Religions you will find that what is preached in their respective books is completely right such as not doing harm to others etc The problem is not religion but individuals warped ideals based on misinterpretation of particular aspects of Religion. We are not the first to take offense to everything, the media has persecuted all Muslims based on a few bad individuals. The Americans go on about 911 which is fair enough but they have portrayed all Muslims in the same light as fundamental extremists and far more innocent Muslim civilians have died because of Americas invasion than 911 but the media never mentions this. The media portrays us as intolerant but we have taken measure to accommodate other cultures and Religions. You will find that many Muslim countries now offer alcohol despite it being against our Religion to drink. Your example of rastafarian and weed is illogical because unless it was medically prescribed they would be denied entry into this country and arrested and that's the same for the majority of Western countries. It has nothing to do with Religious reasons but because that respective country is trying to handle an issue with drugs.
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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 10:57:55 GMT
Jayram, this is from personal experience and experiences of friends and family.
I've been out clubbing and saw a girl I used to talk to in college almost every day. She was with her family/friends, I went to her and said hello and she shunned me POINT BLANK ! Pakistani girl. Another Pakistani girl was 30 when I was dating her, she could only tell her older sister that she was seeing me because her family would go ballistic. We dated for a while undercover, lots of sneaking around.
I dated a Chinese girl a few years back and I openly asked her the question why is it that Oriental Asians don't like blacks, her response was black men sleep around and are not good fathers so orientals tend to avoid them.
A good mate of mine married his long term Indian girlfriend, smashing girl. I asked her how difficult it had been for my mate to get accepted by her family. She replied she didn't care what they thought - which made it a lot easier, now her family love him to bits. But she also said there is a problem, a perception issue. She admitted that the rest of her family see blacks as lazy, unambitious and trouble makers.
I haven't made any of this up.
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Post by Jayramfootball on Jul 16, 2012 11:05:39 GMT
Jayram, this is from personal experience and experiences of friends and family. I've been out clubbing and saw a girl I used to talk to in college almost every day. She was with her family/friends, I went to her and said hello and she shunned me POINT BLANK ! Pakistani girl. Another Pakistani girl was 30 when I was dating her, she could only tell her older sister that she was seeing me because her family would go ballistic. We dated for a while undercover, lots of sneaking around. I dated a Chinese girl a few years back and I openly asked her the question why is it that Oriental Asians don't like blacks, her response was black men sleep around and are not good fathers so orientals tend to avoid them. A good mate of mine married his long term Indian girlfriend, smashing girl. I asked her how difficult it had been for my mate to get accepted by her family. She replied she didn't care what they thought - which made it a lot easier, now her family love him to bits. But she also said there is a problem, a perception issue. She admitted that the rest of her family see blacks as lazy, unambitious and trouble makers. I haven't made any of this up. I am sure you havnt made any of it up Your summary above though is interesting in that these Asian and Oriental girls were willing to date you - racists dont do that so not all think that way clearly! Also, in the Asian culture the frowning on mixed marriages (which DOES exist, I fully agree) is an interesting one. I am not so sure it is to do with racism (as i would describe it, which may be different to your interpretation). There is a similarity here to the Irish catholic culture (I am half Irish and half Asian so I know . In both there tends to be a quite pronounced need to show a 'perfect face' to the world and anything out of the ordinary is discouraged... behind closed doors its very different though ;D
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 11:08:41 GMT
Jayram, this is from personal experience and experiences of friends and family. I've been out clubbing and saw a girl I used to talk to in college almost every day. She was with her family/friends, I went to her and said hello and she shunned me POINT BLANK ! Pakistani girl. Another Pakistani girl was 30 when I was dating her, she could only tell her older sister that she was seeing me because her family would go ballistic. We dated for a while undercover, lots of sneaking around. I dated a Chinese girl a few years back and I openly asked her the question why is it that Oriental Asians don't like blacks, her response was black men sleep around and are not good fathers so orientals tend to avoid them. A good mate of mine married his long term Indian girlfriend, smashing girl. I asked her how difficult it had been for my mate to get accepted by her family. She replied she didn't care what they thought - which made it a lot easier, now her family love him to bits. But she also said there is a problem, a perception issue. She admitted that the rest of her family see blacks as lazy, unambitious and trouble makers.I haven't made any of this up. This is exactly the problem I am trying to highlight, This misconception of a persons attitude based on Race can also be applied to Religion or Culture. How many times have Muslims in recent times been subject to unfair stereotypes in recent years? I remember reading an article that said that Arabs and Asians are stopped now almost double the amount of times they were by the police since 911, now many of those stopped are not Muslims and have nothing to do with Islam but are still stopped by the police because of this stereotyping that all Muslims are dangerous and all Asians/Arabs are Muslims. The number of white people being stopped is the same as before although the number of people converting to Islam has increased since 911 (because they went out to learn about Islam and try and understand it more) I hope that this helps show that Religion and Race are very closely linked
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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 11:15:00 GMT
Altbouli, I'd be interested to find out more. I personally have no problem with any individual, I take all as they come. You can be a black knobhead, a white knobhead, a Christian knobhead. Being a knobhead transcends race, culture and religion LOL.
What I object to Altbouli is preferential treatment and double standards. We cannot go to any muslim or siekh country and expect to have the freedom to do what we would do in our own country yet muslims come here - to a christian country and expect to get their will. I gave the example of a rastafarian, his religion condones the use of smoking weed, but they are not allowed to do it anywhere except Jamaica to my knowledge. Why do the British government bend of backwards for some but not all ? Double standards. If you are allowing sikhs to not wear helmets. Some sikhs DO NOT have to wear safety headwear in construction sites, sikhs DO NOT have to wear helmets when they ride scooters and mopeds. So the British government give allowances to some religions but not others, how is this right ? Its not like Rastafarian is some freak cult from Idaho that promotes sleeping with your daughter and killing everyone in a pact suicide !!
Religion is NOT a bad thing, it is man's interpretation of religion that is at fault, greed is the enemy of all men, greed is the cause of pretty much every problem in the world. You can't drink or kiss in public in Dubai and that is classed as one of the more lenient Emirates !! During Ramadan things are even worse.
The police will come to my house if I have the music too loud, but the allow the calls to prayer from mosques that can be heard for miles. It is this perception of injustice and a lack of fairness that annoys people like me and rightly or wrongly you simply stereotype.
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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 11:23:40 GMT
Jayram, the girls I managed to date were definitely exceptions, open minded, wanting to experience the world and live with their eyes open. Of course not all oriental asians are racist but many are.
Altbouli, I say to you ... look how many times black people are mistreated !! Black people are still stopped and searched in London far more than any other race and nationally it is just as bad. Its only since 9/11 that muslims have been targeted, black people have had to live with being 2nd class citizens since we came over on the banana boats in the 50s and 60s.
And If I could put a hierarchy for what I believe is perceived class, Asians of all kind would sooner bring a white man home to the family than a black man, so the question has to be asked, what on earth did black people ever do to them to be treated like nobodies ??
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 11:34:50 GMT
Altbouli, I'd be interested to find out more. I personally have no problem with any individual, I take all as they come. You can be a black knobhead, a white knobhead, a Christian knobhead. Being a knobhead transcends race, culture and religion LOL. What I object to Altbouli is preferential treatment and double standards. We cannot go to any muslim or siekh country and expect to have the freedom to do what we would do in our own country yet muslims come here - to a christian country and expect to get their will. I gave the example of a rastafarian, his religion condones the use of smoking weed, but they are not allowed to do it anywhere except Jamaica to my knowledge. Why do the British government bend of backwards for some but not all ? Double standards. If you are allowing sikhs to not wear helmets. Some sikhs DO NOT have to wear safety headwear in construction sites, sikhs DO NOT have to wear helmets when they ride scooters and mopeds. So the British government give allowances to some religions but not others, how is this right ? Its not like Rastafarian is some freak cult from Idaho that promotes sleeping with your daughter and killing everyone in a pact suicide !! Religion is NOT a bad thing, it is man's interpretation of religion that is at fault, greed is the enemy of all men, greed is the cause of pretty much every problem in the world. You can't drink or kiss in public in Dubai and that is classed as one of the more lenient Emirates !! During Ramadan things are even worse. The police will come to my house if I have the music too loud, but the allow the calls to prayer from mosques that can be heard for miles. It is this perception of injustice and a lack of fairness that annoys people like me and rightly or wrongly you simply stereotype. That's fair enough an I understand where you coming from with preferential treatment and double standards, However I can only speak for my own Religion and say that more laws are being introduced such as Muslim women being prevented from wearing the hijab to School despite their protest. I agree that their is a lack of fairness and that applies to us as well. We cant generally pray when we want due to work and I couldn't for example go to the Mosque on Fridays because it is a working day in this country. You don't hear any Muslims complain about this and we except this because we realize that the laws are very different here. The Police also allow church bells to ring, they allow sikh and Hindu festivals which can be quite loud. Playing loud music is very different to a mass gathering to prayer and if you consider that Mosque's are generally built away from highly residential areas because of this issue with noise.
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 11:42:21 GMT
Jayram, the girls I managed to date were definitely exceptions, open minded, wanting to experience the world and live with their eyes open. Of course not all oriental asians are racist but many are. Altbouli, I say to you ... look how many times black people are mistreated !! Black people are still stopped and searched in London far more than any other race and nationally it is just as bad. Its only since 9/11 that muslims have been targeted, black people have had to live with being 2nd class citizens since we came over on the banana boats in the 50s and 60s. And If I could put a hierarchy for what I believe is perceived class, Asians of all kind would sooner bring a white man home to the family than a black man, so the question has to be asked, what on earth did black people ever do to them to be treated like nobodies ?? Again I agree with this, blacks are treated as second class citizens I have many black friends and seen the injustice just by hanging out with them. I am half Arab and half white so I cant speak for Asian family's but coming from North Africa where we have a lot of black Immigrants I can tell you that this perception of blacks in my culture is not the same. What I am saying is that even people who are not Muslim are being persecuted because the police may think that they are Muslim. Look at Obama for example he has not been abused not because of his skin but because he was suspected of being a Muslim which the American people were not ready for. In the end they found out that he was actually Christian and he got more support to claim the presidency, prior to that many were unsure about voting for him because they suspected that he was a Muslim
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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 12:05:52 GMT
Very true Altbouli and I agree entirely with your last 2 messages
I agree also that we should not feel it is our right to offend others for the choices they have made, we all know right from wrong, but it is good that we have such variety in the world and I love the fact that London is such a melting pot. I may disagree with aspects of some religions but I wouldn't offend followers of that religion.
I came back from Serbia last year and on the tube home back in London noticed the massive difference between the 2 countries. In Serbia people stopped and looked at me, a couple of girls asked if they could take their photo with me !!
On the tube ride home there were African blacks, Caribbean blacks, oriental asian and Indian etc. There were what seemed to be Eastern Europeans and normal whites as well. What I couldn't take for granted though was .. who was and wasn't English !!! Every single person on the carriage could've been from England such is the level of immigration that this country has had for generations. There is no typical English look and I think that is amazing !!!
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Post by ALTBOULI on Jul 16, 2012 13:50:30 GMT
I think we have built up quite a good discussion here and although there are things we disagree on, the fact that we can talk so freely about such issues shows how we have developed as a community
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Post by pneawf on Jul 16, 2012 14:26:52 GMT
I think we have built up quite a good discussion here and although there are things we disagree on, the fact that we can talk so freely about such issues shows how we have developed as a community Absolutely. Lots of frank exchanges and not a single insult or problem. This is what happens when intelligent adults debate. Thank You all.......
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Post by thehothead on Jul 16, 2012 14:47:17 GMT
Ditto. Makes a change from the petty slanging matches these conversations tend to descend to.
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